Even if you never had the exact word to describe it, I am sure you have found yourself overwhelmed, overstimulated, or overreactive, and ultimately you were dysregulated. Being in a regulated state allows us to respond to situations with calm and intention, while dysregulation can lead to reactive behavior. My guest, emotional development expert and author Alyssa Blask Campbell, explains that regulation involves the ability to cycle through different states in our nervous system with ease, how our nervous system reacts to different stimuli, and how we can use tools like deep breathing to regulate it.

Alyssa also introduces the concept of sensory systems and how being aware of what drains or recharges our nervous system can be a powerful tool for self-regulation. And she emphasizes that emotions are not inherently bad, and that it's crucial to acknowledge and validate all emotions. Tune in to this eye-opening interview to learn more about yourself, as well as a simple practice that can serve as a starting point for building self-awareness and regulation skills.

About a few other things...

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TRANSCRIPT

Monica Packer: [00:00:00] Alyssa Blask Campbell, welcome to About Progress.

 Thanks. I'm excited to be here with you.

Monica Packer: This is a topic that people will think does not have anything to do with them, but it. Absolutely does. Even though it looks like it's about parenting, it's not. We're talking about regulation today. Let's begin with this quick question I have for you. Is this a new thing or has it been around for a long time?

The word regulation, what does it mean? Give us a little bit of background

Alyssa Blask Campbell: Sure. It's definitely not new. It's something that we've had for a very long time. It's just really zeitgeisty right now. And in a way that I'm jazzed about. It means that we're thinking about the nervous system and talking about it. Really publicly and in a way that we haven't for a long time, and in a way that I think a lot of us didn't grow up experiencing. And now that we are talking about it more now, it's okay, what does this mean and what do we do with it? So it's become pretty [00:01:00] buzzwordy. But when we're you said what does it mean?

I think that's a great question 'cause I think people toss out the word like regulation or regulated quite often and it really means the ability to kind of cycle through different states in your nervous system with ease. So if I'm in a regulated state and my husband comes in from work and he's, had a hard day, and he's really grumpy and he says something kind of sarcastic or snippy. If I'm in a regulated state, I can receive that and be like, oh, he must have had a hard day. I can still Calm my body and show up and say, Hey, what's going on bud?

I, it sounds like you've had a hard day.

Do you want me to take something off your plate? Should I prep dinner? Do you need a little minute to like calm? If I'm in a dysregulated state when he walks in and he is snippy and sarcastic, I might get snippy back. Now I'm dysregulated too. [00:02:00] We are both kind of firing off each other and we end up in this cycle where no one's accessing what we consider self-control, where you're choosing your words and choosing your actions and choosing your tone, that Having access to those skills requires regulation.

Monica Packer: So you're describing some emotions, like an emotional reaction, but then you also talked about the nervous system and the body, and that's where. I got confused a lot when I was first learning about this, and it's also where I get confused and trying to explain it to other

Track 1: people.

Alyssa Blask Campbell: Sure.

Monica Packer: how do these things work together?

Alyssa Blask Campbell: Yeah, so the nervous system is a part of the body. And so when we're looking at like the emotions part, emotions, are just nervous system reactions to other things. So when I say walk into a space and I see somebody who has like red, puffy eyes and maybe like maybe even tears coming down their [00:03:00] face. My nervous system has a reaction and tries to make meaning of what I'm seeing. So I'm gonna look at them and my nervous system might get heightened oh no, are they feeling sad? Are they like disappointed? Are they embarrassed? What's happening for them?

And it tries to make meaning of what I'm seeing. Often with emotion words like what's coming up for them, emotions. For us, it's really quite simple in terms of inside the body. Your nervous system says, oh wow, I'm having a reaction to something I'm seeing. So if the fire alarm starts to go off right now, my nervous system is gonna fire inside some adrenaline and cortisol and it's gonna shut down the like rational thinking part of my brain that's gonna turn on my like survival brain that says Get out of the house. The fire, alarm's going. If we paired an

emotion with that it might be like scared or frightened maybe even nervous. And really what it is the nervous [00:04:00] system reaction. And then we pair an emotion word with these nervous system reactions. Does that make sense?

Monica Packer: It does. And what does this have to do then with the brainstem and I, 'cause I've heard that come up too I just wanna make...

Alyssa Blask Campbell: Sure. Sure. So let's, I'm gonna walk you through an example of kind of what happens inside the body.

So if you take, for instance, that fire alarm going off, and the fire alarm starts to go off, we're hanging out right now, it goes off, and then my prefrontal cortex, that rational thinking brain shuts down my amygdala, that primal brain turns on, and my body starts to produce adrenaline and cortisol.

It's a stress response. And this is awesome because it keeps us alive in the same way that like if were being attacked by a bear or if you were standing in the street and you saw a car coming, you wouldn't stand there and say, should I move?

Should I walk to the... no, you would just do it. You just react. And when we're in this reactive part of our brain, [00:05:00] we are in a dysregulated state. Our nervous system is not regulated and we are really Acting, not thinking, right? So we're in this reactive place in order to get back to a place where we're then thinking we need to be able to notice what's happening inside of the sensations and then regulate calm the nervous system.

And then we can start to gain access. And then we can make meaning. This is where like later we're like, Wow. Where did that car come from?

Why was it zooming down the street. We might ask ourselves those questions once we get out of the house, from the fire alarm. then we're like, okay, I wonder what started, it this is where we might start to access more of those questions, but in the moment, what we don't want is for the fire alarm to go off and you're like I wonder what's going on. Should I leave? I wonder what started this, we just want you to get out of the house it's a survival tactic and it's really truly helped us survive.

To this point, [00:06:00] and it does the same thing, whether it's a real threat or a perceived threat. So if it's the fire alarm or it's a bear attacking us, the same thing happens versus if my child is melting down on aisle four of the grocery store because he's upset that I won't let him get something my nervous system also starts to melt down on aisle four of the grocery store and it goes through that same kind of threat response.

Monica Packer: So basically when we are dysregulated, nervous system is functioning from a place where we're in the flight of the amygdala. But near the brainstem. And we're not able to think and process through things. Also process the emotions in ways that are helpful.

Alyssa Blask Campbell: Correct. Yep. It's our sympathetic nervous system is the part that's like that reactive responds to danger.

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Monica Packer: [00:07:00] Okay. And so to get regulated again, we're trying to switch from the sympathetic to parasympathetic, also means we're trying to go from the back of the brain, the brainstem, more to the front. So let's clarify this for people who do have kids, and maybe they have been hearing this word regulation or dysregulation in the context of parenting.

What would that look like for a child then? What behaviors would they see from a child who is regulated versus dysregulated?

Alyssa Blask Campbell: Dysregulation can show up in a lot of ways and some are more triggering for us than others. so it can be like the classic tantrum meltdown. It could also be that a kid's ignoring you that we see defiance, misbehavior. It could be, the hitting, kicking, biting. It could be running away. It can be like like silliness where maybe they go up over and they knock their siblings like block tower down, and then they smile and run away. And really they're [00:08:00] dysregulated in that moment, but it looks on the surface like they're choosing this and then they're smiling about it. So dysregulation can show up in a number of ways.

And for all of us too. Like the way that dysregulation, one of my, husband's go-tos when we think of fight, flight, freeze, and fawn as those reactive states, we tend to have certain reactions to different emotions. So maybe when you feel. Scared. You go into fight mode or maybe you freeze. Maybe when you feel embarrassed you freeze or you flee. You wanna get as small as possible or you wanna run away from it.

My son right now, he's two and a half. He, when he feels embarrassed, he runs and hides. He wants to be as small and quiet and disappear. I think if it, if he was a turtle, he'd wanna hide in his shell. Versus when he feels mad or frustrated. He usually goes more into like fight mode where he might throw the piece of chalk that he has in his hand. [00:09:00] And the same for us as adults. My husband will often go towards like freeze or flee where he'll just get quiet or he'll take space. And for me, I typically will fawn. Or freeze or I'm sorry, fawn or flee. So I'll either run away from a situation when the pandemic started, I was in the middle of a miscarriage and everything just felt really heavy and hard and I was like, maybe we could move to Maine. We live in Vermont. my husband was like, maybe. But in my head I just wanna run away from all of it. That's my nervous system reaction. Or to fawn, which is to people please. Where I'm like, oh, there's tension in this space and it's dysregulating and I want to bring the peace, right? And so in order to try and achieve regulation to keep my body safe, we'll go into like people pleaser mode.

Monica Packer: Thank you for breaking that down for us because when I [00:10:00] first had this explained to me, it was by this incredible professional that we found after years of trying to get one child and he was almost diagnosed with everything in the book, but eventually, They just it's basically, it's trauma to the brain development.

He's just stuck in dysregulation, and I thought it was like cuckoo science.

I had never heard of it before. It was all new to me, but since then, it's changed our lives and not only has it changed show up and have helped him and how he's grown and how he's learned. Like his brain cells have literally changed, like he knows how to get into that regulation state.

It's helped every other child in our family and it's helped me and my husband. I feel like everything comes back regulation and like from kids who are neurodivergent, which we have three of, and kids who are not and have just the same regulation issue. So the reason I'm saying all that is because the thing that

Both surprised me the most about how to help them, and that also made me feel a little oh [00:11:00] great. Another thing for me to work on, Jose said, in order to help my child learn how to be more regulated, I had to show up to the dysregulation regulated.

Alyssa Blask Campbell: a real doozy. It's a real doozy.

Yeah.

Monica Packer: So can you speak that? And let's do this with the lens of, with children who are dysregulated or people in our

Alyssa Blask Campbell: Anyway, yeah.

Monica Packer: so how

Alyssa Blask Campbell: Totally. So feelings are contagious unless there's regulation. And whether that's with a kid or it's with your partner or it's with your coworker, it's with your friend. Feelings are contagious unless there's regulation. When I wrote, Tiny Humans Big Emotions, we wrote it in three parts, and part one dives into kind of the neuroscience, what's happening in our brain and our body and the us part of it.

Our method collaborative emotion processing is five components, one's adult child interactions. The other four are about us, and it's what you're saying here that in those moments​

[00:12:00] something happens and let, it could be a child that's having a hard time and melting down, or maybe it's your friend that just said something in a group of people that was embarrassing for you and you had thought you'd shared this in confidence and then they just shared it. And now inside you might feel like your heart beating fast and your shoulders go up to your ears. Maybe for me in these moments I often get like sweaty or clammy and I, my like chest kind of gets tight. I, this is my nervous system reaction.

This is the dysregulation at play and if I'm going to at some point have a conversation with that person, or even be a part of that social group in the next few minutes. I have to notice what's happening for me in order to regulate. Otherwise, I'm gonna react. I'm gonna react from [00:13:00] my past. I'm gonna react from this triggered space. I'm gonna react from the biases and narratives that I have from my childhood. What I've seen happen, what I've learned in the past has happened, what people have told me about, and when I think of kids, one that's been coming up a lot in our conversations is an age bias with kids. They should know better. They're old enough to know better. should hit a certain age where they magically have these tools and know what to do with them. And those are all from our childhood, right?

Where we maybe heard that or we were exposed to that in some capacity. And now those narratives and those parts of us live inside and in these moments of dysregulation, Those different parts surface to try and keep us safe and to try and keep our kids safe. And so in the embarrassment scenario with a friend and maybe even disappointment or frustration coming up, that you shared something in confidence and now it's being shared in a way that [00:14:00] doesn't feel good to you. When you can notice those feelings in your body and when you have a toolbox for then how to regulate, then you can access the right questions to ask yourself the right questions, to ask that person the things that you wanna say and how you wanna say them, the tone, the words, all that becomes more accessible when you can pump the brakes on that adrenaline and cortisol when you can calm that nervous system back down and. What is not their job is for you to react and be like, Hey, and fly off the handle, and then for them to be the one that brings the calm that I, for me, this work Is so empowering because as I've built my own toolbox, it means I get to show up and respond​

regardless of whether the other person is regulated or not,

Monica Packer: Which is fascinating because as you [00:15:00] said, feelings are contagious, right? So even when someone else is dysregulated, hopefully our calm nervous system can also be contagious

Alyssa Blask Campbell: that's right. And what it shows, if we think about it on a, just like neuroscience level. when, if you think of two animals in the wild, if one of them is in fight mode and gets big and the other one gets into fight mode, they're there to fight each other. Now, if one animal goes into fight mode and the other one kind of like softens, then this one says okay, maybe I'm safe to let my guard down. And that's what happens for us as humans, that if one person goes into fight mode and the other responds with regulation, And has a regulated tone and their body softens and they invite the space. It lets the triggered person's nervous system know, oh, I can let my guard down. I'm safe here. This person's not trying to fight me. It allows for vulnerability to exist.

Monica Packer: [00:16:00] That's beautiful to think about. So when I am imagining that scenario and I'm tracking the signs of dysregulation where I can see it happening in my body and take note, that's me, dysregulated. What are the next steps then to use the body help

Alyssa Blask Campbell: Yeah.

Monica Packer: With the nervous system and the

Alyssa Blask Campbell: Yeah.

To regulate. Yeah, so you can't regulate what you're not aware of. So, first, yeah, we're building awareness of what happens in my body when I'm having a hard feeling when I am in that triggered state. And as you start to notice those cues oh, I start to breathe faster or whatever, my chest is tight, my heart's beating fast and clammy, my shoulders go up to my ears.

 My hands are in fist. Those sorts of things that you start to notice those cues, then you can start to regulate. The fastest, most accessible way to regulate is through your breath, which is, I find like annoyingly simple with how it sounds. And I'm like, there's no way when I'm like in this state that breathing [00:17:00] is going to do anything and then it does, and you're like, oh shoot, it's working. And and when, we tap into our breath. It's really looking at deep breathing, so like really want to expand into the belly, not just the chest, and have a longer exhale than an inhale. And if you do that even for 10, 15, 30 seconds, it's going to start to have an impact and it'll start to stop the adrenaline and cortisol production in your body and start to produce serotonin, which regulates your nervous system.

That adrenaline and cortisol is what keeps you on alert, and this starts to take you off of that alert mode. Some other things that are helpful, and we outline these in the book too, as people are learning about their nervous system. There are eight sensory systems. We often think of five sight, sound, taste, touch, and smell. Those like five senses. There are three more. [00:18:00]

One is interception. This is noticing like the feelings inside of your body. So if I say I have butterflies in my stomach, you know what that feels like? If I say I'm hungry, my like, stomach is growling. You know that feeling, so, noticing those internal cues interception or is those internal cues vestibular input? That is where we move the plan of our head. It is located in your inner ear and it's responsible for your like, balance and movement. And you can get vestibular input from swings, from dipping upside down, from spinning and. Then we have prop perceptive. This is your like big body play. People who are craving proprioceptive input might enjoy like a kickboxing class or going for a run some heavy work like CrossFit is right up your alley. And when we look at these eight sensory systems, we are all different in that we are all sensitive to some [00:19:00] of them and then regulated by others. So I. I am sensitive to vestibular input. If I'm on swings for a long time or any length of time, I start to get like lightheaded or nauseous. I am sensitive to sound and certain sounds specifically can really add up for me. I'm regulated. I. By touch and per perceptive input are two really regulating things for me. And so a massage or a hug or being close to somebody having a baby on my body is really regulating for me.

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Alyssa Blask Campbell: My child is regulated by vestibular input.

Monica Packer: Yeah.

Alyssa Blask Campbell: and is dysregulated by touch. And so in those moments when it's time for regulation, what I need and what he need are often different. He, if I try to give him a hug or touch him when he's already in a dysregulated state, he's sensitive to touch. And so it will [00:20:00] further dysregulate him. And so as we're looking at what do we do in the moment one thing for all of us is breath. But beyond that, it's really getting to know your nervous system and start to notice, what am I sensitive to? We think of this as a battery of what drains your battery? What recharges it? And so of those eight sensory systems starting to notice what drains my battery? Like we have this Thomas the train A toy that somebody got me who must really not like me because it makes this terrible clicking sound when it gets like stuck in a corner. And I just wanna throw it out a window and when I can notice like, oh, there's a clicking sound happening. Yeah. And now Everything feels harder.

Like my child's meltdown feels harder. Or even just like

getting ready to go out to the car feels harder, any decisions start to feel harder. That means my nervous system's being drained. And when we can notice those patterns, we can start to tune into what's happening [00:21:00] around us that might be draining it. Is there clutter? Are you visually sensitive and there's clutter around you? And that's really draining your nervous system. I'm a human who's not very sensitive to visual stimulation, and so I can walk into a space that has like piles and clutter and whatever, and it doesn't pull from my nervous system. And my husband's the opposite, where he's like, how can you not see the pile of clothes on the stairs every time you walk up? And I truly just don't see it it doesn't drain me. And so in terms of the, what do we do in the moment, it's really gonna depend on who are you and what are you sensitive to versus what are you regulated by,

Monica Packer: And is this something that your book would help people both for themselves and for their children? Okay, I'm glad to hear it. That's a resource in the book. where we can do a little bit more development.

Alyssa Blask Campbell: Exactly. And I think that's, honestly, so much of this work is personal development because we can't do [00:22:00] this work with kids unless we're doing it ourselves and as I've been doing more and more personal development work on this journey, like getting to know my nervous system and what drains me versus what recharges me has been such a game changer because it allows me to show up with more intention in every area of life. When I'm mindful of that.

Monica Packer: And one of the things we ended up talking about a lot on this podcast accidentally, because I had no plans to do that, was habit formation. And for me it's because so much of when you find out what does charge those batteries, you can preemptively work on your regulation. . Through those habits.

Like for movement is extremely regulating, not the vestibular I'm with you on that one. But other kind of movement helps me. So making sure I go on a walk morning before my kids get up, who need a lot. I, that helps me be regulated as I show up to

Alyssa Blask Campbell: Yeah.

which is huge.

huge. It's huge. I [00:23:00] actually I'm sure then you've talked about habit stacking on here. Okay, great. Yeah. so One of the like habit stacking practices that I added in a couple months ago, I was like, okay, I needed something small and accessible. I life's wild and don't always have time for a 30 minute workout or whatever.

And so I start to look at my day of like, where could I stack something new that would be regulating. And noticed that every time I was going to the bathroom, I was often bringing my phone and it's just like further draining, right? Like I am in there, I'm like answering, emails or I'm sending a text or I'm adding a grocery order or whatever, but I'm like still doing something.

And Now that I'm pregnant, I am going to the bathroom all the time. And so I was like, this is an opportunity to have little mini pauses throughout the day when I'm already gonna, have to go to the bathroom. Now a lot of my bathroom trips involve a two year old, and so I'm in there and I started to just not take my phone [00:24:00] and instead put my hand over my heart and a hand on my belly and take deep breaths. And sometimes it's 10 seconds, sometimes it's a minute and it often involves a toddler touching me or talking to me or whatever. But I was like, I'm just gonna add this in and decrease the screens part. And then he started to do like toilet learning. He now uses the toilet by himself, but in the process,

Monica Packer: Amazing.

Alyssa Blask Campbell: in the process. One night he's getting ready for the bath and my husband was like, Hey Liz, what's going on in here? And I pop in and his eyes are closed and His hands on his dress and his hands on his belly, and he's doing these breaths.

And I was like, all right, you haven't been going to the bathroom with me Like he has. This is a new habit of mine, but it's finding, isn't it cool? It's just finding those little ways of I'm aware, can I pop this in throughout the day? It doesn't have to be a 10, 15 minute, 20, 30 minute ordeal.

Sometimes it's 15 seconds. And really [00:25:00] making it accessible.

Monica Packer: Oh, I could not love that more. And that's huge. A part of how we have taught habits and learned it in this community is it's the small moments that make such a big difference. Alyssa, just a more quick questions you. The first one that I just want to sure we're covering is emotions aren't bad, right?

So not like we're like, don't ever be angry if you're angry or dysregulated. Gotta that right away or sad or whatever. So where's the

Alyssa Blask Campbell: Yeah, so also dysregulation isn't bad everyone, unless you have a hormonal imbalance, everyone cycles in and out of regulation and dysregulation throughout the day.

Monica Packer: So it's not like you need to be a hundred

That's not the goal. It's just to track it better and

Alyssa Blask Campbell: notice

really we're looking at like mindfulness here, so for us, emotions are not bad. All emotions are valid and worthy of being felt. Now all of us are gonna come to adulthood with certain emotions that are harder for us to experience based on our childhood of. [00:26:00] Maybe when you felt sad, somebody tried to distract you out of it, or when you felt scared, somebody tried to make it stop or go away so that you wouldn't feel scared. We all learn that certain emotions were not supposed to feel and that we're failing if we're feeling. And so now we come to adulthood and maybe if it was fear for you growing up, now every time you feel scared, you feel like you're supposed to make it stop and go away.

With emotions, the more you're trying to make 'em stop, it's like quicksand. You just get buried into it. And with fear, for instance, if you try to make it stop, what it ends up being is anxiety. You now are in this spiral of anxiety, and so what we're looking at here is the ability to say oh, wow. I notice what's happening. in my body and we separate sensory regulation versus emotional Regulation sensory being that nervous system part of this of I can regulate my nervous system and get back to a body that feels safe right now. and still feel frustrated with [00:27:00] this situation, or still feel angry, or Still feel sad, and be able to access my words and my language and my thoughts, and my tone on my, actions, all that jazz. But we separate these two out of I'm gonna notice the body part and build tools for regulation there. And then I can be with this emotion as long as I need to be with this emotion, but without spiraling.

Monica Packer: So got your book. Because of my kids, but honestly, it's 50% for me I wanna better access what you're teaching here and learn new ways of doing it.

I've always been a person who likes to outproduce my emotions and like you said, they come back to find me wherever

Alyssa Blask Campbell: Yeah,

Monica Packer: to I've tried to outproduce them. So I'm working on this a lot and I need more tools and I'm excited to access your book for them. Can you tell us a little bit more about why you wanted to create this book and what people can find in

Alyssa Blask Campbell: Sure.

Monica Packer: And let's start with the title. Tiny Humans, Big Emotions but [00:28:00] tell us more

Alyssa Blask Campbell: Yeah.

And I'm also right there with you, like forever building tools. It's never about perfection. I've never left a day and been like, Wow, I was a perfect parent or a perfect teacher today, or a perfect friend or a Perfect partner. I responded perfectly all the time. It's not the goal forever on this journey together for us in writing the book.

So we created the collaborative emotion processing method after

lauren and I were teaching in early childhood and realized that a lot of what we were exposed to was about the kids, and it was like what to say or do in the moment for certain behaviors to stop or to elicit certain behaviors. and it like sounded like it made sense and then in practice we would be triggered by certain behaviors and all of a sudden now I'm reacting instead of responding and,

Monica Packer: the script

Alyssa Blask Campbell: exactly. Exactly. I. And so as we started to, dive into this, lauren, my co-author was like, Hey, [00:29:00] I think we're doing something different. And as we looked at what we were doing that was different, so much of it was about us as the adult and focused on our own awareness and regulation and our own narratives, that personal development stuff for us. And, then it allowed us to access the language, the tools, the ability to then connect with kids in real time.

Track 1: real

Alyssa Blask Campbell: And so then we created the sEP method. We researched it across the US in conjunction with the university and then. Wanted to bring it to the world. So we wrote Tiny Humans, big Emotions. Let's see we finished the research in 2018 and then collected data, so it has been a long time coming. I'm excited for it to be able to be available for folks as a resource.

Monica Packer: Incredible. Knowing you and just how familiar I am with the work you do, no part of this was thrown together and also delivered in a way that it not only feels like I can learn this, but I can also [00:30:00] practice it in doable ways. That gives me hope instead of just another thing to be mad at

Alyssa Blask Campbell: Totally.

Monica Packer: So I assume I'm appreciative of what you do. We always like to end our interviews with you sharing one small way that listeners can take action on what they learned today.

Alyssa Blask Campbell: Yeah.

Monica Packer: So what would that be?

Alyssa Blask Campbell: I would start by just noticing, and my favorite way to start this practice is to set random alarms for yourself, like three to five phone alarms that are gonna beep or go off at random times throughout your day where when they go off, your job isn't to change anything. It's just to notice where are my shoulders?

What's happening with my breath? What's happening inside? How is my body feeling?

Track 1: my body

Alyssa Blask Campbell: I'm just starting to tune in to where am I and what's happening.

Monica Packer: Amazing. Thank you for that and for this incredible interview. I'm so grateful that you took the time out of your very busy life right now, an d alyssa where else can we make sure we're following along with your

Alyssa Blask Campbell: Totally. Yeah. So I [00:31:00] have a podcast voices of Your Village podcast where we drop episodes every Thursday and some are really parenting related and some are really just US related ourselves doing this work, we have an Instagram that's pretty bumping. At seed and sew

Okay.

I like to hang out there. And then of course the book, Tiny Humans Big Emotions is wherever books are sold. It's available globally, so a number of countries are carrying it as well. It's in a bunch of different languages. And I read the audio book for it, if that's how you like to consume books. Yeah.

Monica Packer: Yeah, I'm big into audio books, but this is the one I'm like, I need to highlight dog ear, make sure I can reference, so I'm getting a tangible copy, so I still look forward to reading it. Thank you for your amazing words of wisdom and help and the work

Alyssa Blask Campbell: Thank you so much for having me. What a gift to get to hang with you.

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