Tired of being under-valued in your marriage? Learn from two world-renowned experts about practical tips to creating more partnership in marriage.

Is your marriage ready for more? More intimacy, connection, and collaboration?

Then, it’s time for some changes. It’s time to move towards more partnership. 

“Partnership?” 

This is where both spouses have their needs and desires be equally heard. This is where BOTH spouses’ contributions can be better valued and supported. 

(Psst: this helps the whole family thrive!) 

Yes, we can agree that this kind of partnership is something we want more of in our marriages. 

But, getting there is complicated. It takes time, and it takes expertise . . .

That’s why we are lucky to have two world-renowned relationship experts on the show this week! 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife and Dr. Julie Hanks (two of our top-favorite guests!) are joining forces to share what a partnership model looks like, why it’s essential to having deeply successful marriages and families, and HOW couples can move past the obstacles getting in the way of being equally valued.  

This won’t be a light-hearted episode for you to listen to. 

But it will be a life-changing one.

It’s time for MORE in your marriage! If you’re ready for that, listen in to learn how.

About a few other things...

Reclaim your creative power and rediscover who you actually are! If you’re ready to come back home to yourself, to be able to say that you know who you are and what matters to you, take my foundation course, “Finding Me.” It’s OK that you’ve lost parts of yourself along the way; but as you learn to anchor back into who you are and align your life to what matters to you, you’ll find that you have more strength, more fulfilment, and more creativity to bring to your important roles and responsibilities.

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Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife
Dr. Julie Hanks
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TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Julie Hanks: Dr. Jennifer Finlayson and Dr. Julie Hanks, thank you so much for being on About Progress.

Monica: You've both been on the show multiple times and we've all benefited from your incredible work.

And just to start this whole interview, thank you. Thank you for the work that you both do. And for being here together, it's such an honor. Let's talk about the topic. We see this come up a lot in the women all of us serve together, this power dynamic that we have within partnerships.

And we're going to talk specifically about marriages today and we all have dynamics in marriages, but there tends to be one more about power. And I've learned so much about this topic from both of you, how to increase partnership in your marriage, and that's our topic today.

But we can't talk about that first without talking about that power dynamic. Dr. Julie Hanks, let's start with you and just talk about what does this power dynamic typically look like in your clients and where might it come from?

Dr. Julie Hanks: There's a lot of variety, but there is a pattern that most, if not all of us have inherited where the man is the head of the household. Whether we actually consciously believe that or not, we've inherited this assumption or you know, that the man is somehow in charge. And that can be very subtle. It can look like prioritizing his career over hers or his education over hers or his leisure time over hers or his opinions. So it can be sometimes overt, but sometimes really subtle. And it comes from this The way that we organize in our society in general, toward patriarchy. And patriarchy, that word is a trigger for some people.

It's not talking about men. It's talking about a system of organization where men are privileged above women and men are in charge. So it's a system. It's not the men. So if this is, I love men, sometimes I'm accused of not liking men. I love men. And patriarchy hurts men and women, and it really impacts the marriages that I've seen in my practice.

Monica: We hear that term patriarchy, and a lot of us can have strong reactions to it either way, like big reactions to it. But there's still an imbalance when you're trying to move outside of, you know, that patriarchal power kind of dynamic in the marriage.

And I think one of the things that helps to start is to just look at the pain that it's causing for everyone. And Jennifer, you did an interview with me years ago, and I've never forgotten how you talked about how women are more developed in ways that men are not because of this dynamic and vice versa. So talk a little bit more about that.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: First of all, society's evolved a lot because when you're in a system where you literally can't own property, you can't vote, you have no rights, you can't get divorced.

I mean, you think about some of the places where legally women have been we're in a much, much better situation legally or in terms of the structures of society. But emotionally, as Julie was saying, these things are often still inherited and we learn a way of thinking. If you grow up watching Cinderella, you learn a way of thinking that the woman kind of slides underneath the man and the man learns a way of thinking about who he's supposed to be.

And when we're immature in our development, we naturally create hierarchies. It's a way of trying to earn a sense of self through the other person. So, you can get inducted into that narrative of growing up in depending on somebody, because it lowers your anxiety.

It's this idea that, if I find someone who will love me and accept me and care for me and provide a life for me, well, that's all, you know, and think I'm wonderful . . . What's the downside it's like, I want that, you know.

And for the, the masculine version of it, or the male version is I want to be the strong one. I want to be the one that's providing. I want her to. Adore me and be grateful for the things that I offer to her. The reason it appeals is it's a way of earning a sense of self through the other person. So it's where most people start. And it's why people buy in emotionally into hierarchy.

The thing is you can also buy in that the husband's in charge and a lot of smart women figure out how to still get on top in that system. So just to kind of give it some, you can sort of be like, well, I'm the needy dependent one. Therefore you owe me and you're doing a crap job of it. And you know, and so you can, you can find ways to be the dominant person or to get the marriage to revolve around you.

But it's costly if you stay locked in it, or if you think it's the ideal, because it interferes almost unequivocally with desire, which is kind of the main focus of my work, but it interferes with development because when your sense of self is walking around outside of you, you have a hard time liking that person. You have a hard time, genuinely caring for them. You're relating to the more as somebody who manages, how you feel about you.

And it also keeps you from developing other aspects of who you are, your capacity either to provide for yourself or to, you know, to handle yourself in the world or your ability to be vulnerable and open and knowable.

You know, when you ask men to always be strong, there's no latitude, there's no room for them to be insecure, uncertain. And so they have to do a lot of masking to manage their sense of self often.

Monica: So there's a lot of gaps here, a lot of gaps within like a day to day structure of our marriage, you know, who does what, but also a huge gap in terms of intimacy being together really, truly together as well as on an individual basis of lacking that development.

And we want more mature marriages. We want more developed people. We want more developed families. As you're describing the costs that are paid, I feel like the flip side of that are also the benefits that can come with a partnership- marriage. And so Dr. Hanks, what are we looking for?

Like, we're going to talk more about what it looks like, but why should someone even want more partnership in their marriage? Especially if like at the level they're at right now is, seems to be working fine.

Dr. Julie Hanks: I think what Jennifer said is as beautiful about development. So if, if the goal in life is growth, eventually you're going to get to a point where hierarchy in your marriage--it, it stops growth and healthy development is about integration. So it's about men integrating their vulnerability, their sensitivity, their emotional connection, and women integrating strength and ambition. Having all of that in each person is, is the goal of healthy of a healthy adult.

And so that's the benefit is that you get to become a full. A full grown adult with a variety of ways of being in the world and responding that aren't limited to just playing a role. You get to be authentically who you are and express that in a variety of ways.

And then I think a part of this too, is then you can model it for your children. You can model what equality looks like, what respect looks like, what what partnership instead of hierarchy looks like, where it's both people are prioritized, both of their needs are. And. And you can model that. And that's what changes that for the entire culture is adults, parents modeling that, you know, a new way of being for their children.

Monica: Hmm. So partnership, if I'm hearing you, right. It doesn't mean we're going into full role reversals. It's not like we're just going to do a switch, a roo, or also downplay the different strengths that both people can bring because of their unique perspectives of being a woman and being a man it's more about prioritizing needs on an equal level.

Right?

Dr. Julie Hanks: Right. And yeah, it's also not about dividing up tasks, 50, 50. That's what people often they misunderstand partnership. So I always say it's not who does what, it's who decides who does what and whose work is valued and whose time is valued. So you can have a partnership family that looks very traditional in terms of roles, but both people are

equally valued, have access to resources, have access to decision-making power, to pleasure to, you know, all of that.

So it's not just about who does what it's a structural shift in power.

Monica: That's huge. I think that's going to shift a lot in terms of what women think about partnership and how it can play out. Jennifer, what about you? What do you think about how would you define partnership?

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah, I, I love what Julie was saying there, cause I, it it's exactly that where a lot of my clients go, which is "you shouldn't be loading the dishwasher half the time," that kind of thing. And I can understand why people might start there. And oftentimes you do have to kind of address some of these more mundane things. But I like the idea of it's about who gets to decide.

And a word I use a lot with clients is about collaboration. It's a couple that can collaborate is. Is able to address the challenges in their lives, whether it's a challenge with the child, how they provide for the family, how they raise their children, how they have a good sexual partnership, and that both, both person's perspectives and desires are valued in that conversation.

And that you bring the best from each person in that. To create something stronger and better. And so it allows you to bring your strengths to the conversation, to address your liabilities in that conversation. But you're trying to create something synergistic ultimately through how you each participate and you can't do it through de-valuing once systematically in the conversation.

Monica: Hmm. You know, I'm thinking back when we, before we first had kids, I remember thinking, oh, Brad and I are gonna split all the duties. He's getting up at night just as often as I am and I was breastfeeding and I learned pretty quickly that that wasn't going to work out. And I think that's because I was at a different stage of development within my own maturity, my own sense of self as going from more the surface ways of being able to be a bean counter within the tasks in our home. Instead of like you just described and Dr. Hanks too, about meeting of minds and of strengths and collaborating and this way. Everyone gets valued.

And that's, I mean, that's, that's the goal here. I want to talk more about how for those who are at that place that I was at before we first had kids. But first let's talk about obstacles. We've kind of covered a little bit of it being just tradition or mindset. It could also be people within a partnership disagreeing about what that looks like. Jennifer, let's start with you actually, in this one. What do you see as obstacles with your clients? A lot that are getting in the way of this meeting of minds and this collaboration that we've been discussing?

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Well, one is the lack of courage and I mean, I know it sounds a little bit strange, but there's often an upside to your non-collaborative position.

That's scary to let go of, so I work with a lot of people it's easier to resent your devalued position then to actually level up and claim a position of self-valuing and stay in a conversation, not aggressively, but not as a doormat either, and actually work out a different arrangement. Because that means more exposure of yourself, more exposure of your desires, more willingness to tolerate the inherent conflict.

You know, it's easier to resent your spouse for not valuing you than to value yourself enough to stand up for something that needs to be addressed. So I think a real obstacle is shifting in your own view of yourself.

I think an obstacle is staying steady enough to keep your eye on the prize. Rather than, yeah. Like, you know, a couple I'm working with where they've had kind of chronic desire challenges, and he never feels desired. And so sometimes he'll come in in this supposedly wanting a better sexual relationship, but then doing something that kind of digs at her as a way of managing his sense of self.

So he doesn't keep his eye on what's the goal is to create something good for both of us. Where she gets vulnerable is like, she can now use that to say, well, you're not very desirable and it's, there's some truth in it, but she can also use it to kind of push him down rather than looking towards what are we trying to create?

And that's so comfortable in the beginning, that it's easy to indulge it, but undermine the ultimate growth of the partnership and create something that's freer and happier for both people.

Monica: That one up, one down positions that you've talked about on the show in the past too. I, I feel like martyrdom as women tends to be like this weird upside.

Like it's almost like a twisted upside maybe because we're used to it, maybe because we see some advantages in it and even just staying safe in it.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah, it's a way of hiding and it's a way of getting a corrupt sense of superiority. And often we come by it honestly, we've often watched a parent do it. We've, you know, it's a, it's a tempting one.

Monica: You know, Julie, you've talked about martyrdom a lot with women. I'm sure that's one of the big obstacles. You can talk more about that or any others that you see getting in the way of this partnership?

Dr. Julie Hanks: Yeah. I, what comes to my mind is are the larger social obstacles. So Jennifer's talking a lot about psychological obstacles within the couple relationship.

There is the expectation that men do certain things and women do certain things and women have moved into the workforce more readily than men have moved into the home front. And so there's a large imbalance in workload. Even when both couples work full time, women tend to do the bulk of the unpaid work.

And even when, even when there's a stay at home dad and a working mom, often the bulk is still on the woman. So there's this resistance to men doing unpaid work. Mostly because it's not valued in our society. Unpaid work is not equally valued in our society and that's a huge barrier.

Because nobody wants to, you know, who wants to do it. And society has assigned women to do the less valuable work. And so reframing paid work and unpaid work as equally valuable. And that time spent taking care of a sick child is just as valuable as time spent leading a multi-million dollar corporation.

And we, we have a hard time. Seeing that. And so those are some societal barriers to creating partnership at home. Those larger societal expectations get in the way.

Monica: Well, that makes so much sense. I just finished reading. Today, actually this book called invisible women. Have you read that book?

Dr. Julie Hanks: It's one of my, one of my favorites. I recommend it all the time. It's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking.

Monica: Oh, I felt it was both heartbreaking and maddening. And I thought of both of you as I was reading the whole thing. But even, you know, the GDP made that choice on purpose to not include unpaid labor.

And so it makes sense that this has coming from all directions and it becomes so internalized where we're almost saying, no, this is the standard and we want to hold up the standard, but now let's speak to the women who are, who are ready for more.

And these, and these and these marriages who are ready for more, I mean, more intimacy and more connection, more value, more collaboration, more strengths. I mean, the list goes on and on. Where do they s That's overwhelming. Any go-to tips, Dr. Hanks?

Dr. Julie Hanks: Oh, where to start? It really depends on where they are.

Monica: Yeah. We can't have like a sit down. We need a therapy session with each person.

Dr. Julie Hanks: Yeah, really. A lot of times it starts with education, like the education about unpaid labor and paid labor, education about invisible labor the mental and emotional labor, about development like Jennifer was saying.

So there's kind of this education process where paradigms are shifting so they can see things that they haven't seen before. So, often I start with just kind of educating about different concepts and different ways of thinking about your relationship and the part that you play in it.

Monica: Hmm. You know, and that's the part that I think it's easier to be stuck than to see. . . I mean, we just talked about that book. It was heartbreaking to be educated. Right. Yeah. And it's, it's a barrier for sure. But that makes total sense. You got to start there. Knowledge is power. Anything to add to that? Dr. Finlayson five, I'm sure we'll have more back and forth on this. There's many tips.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: No, it's true. I'm just thinking about that idea because until you can see it, you can't change it and, and you can't recognize its impact. A lot of women feel like in this one down position and they've just taken it as, there's something wrong with me, you know, I'm.

Monica: Yeah, it feels like a lack of choice.

You've both talked about that. Yeah.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: I remember talking to my dad who was saying, I just don't understand feminism or this whole critique. It doesn't make any sense. And I borrowed that Eloise bell essay that was written back in, I think the nineties or the eighties where she was talking about going to church and imagining seeing on the stand all women. And the men got their diaper bags and their children. And the women were passing the sacrament, and mother and heaven and her daughter who came and just so I was explaining that story to my dad.

And then I remember saying to him, you know, and on Thursday night there's going to be a depression you know, a homemaking on depression for the men . . . And my dad started to laugh because it's sort of this recognition that there's this downward pressure that's very hard to see it. And it comes out in your, in your mental health.

And so it can be, it can feel like I'm broken when you're not. But I think a place to start more on the interpersonal level or within yourself is to look for this one-down feeling like. And to understand it as an expression of a relationship dynamic than something individual and specific to you, right now. That doesn't mean there's nothing you can do when you're dependent on everybody else, per se, but that this isn't about you being broken you're in a system that's broken, very likely.

Another thing to look at is at where are my resentments. This is a place where I think. It's really like sometimes women will say to me, I don't know what I want.

I never think about what I want. I have no practice in it. And I'm sure that's absolutely true. But a lot of times your desires get expressed in the perverse form when there's no room for your desires in resentment. So if you can look at your resentments, they're trying to express something. Looking at your depression is often trying to express something that is not being acknowledged and looked at and addressed. And so the body's actually in response or the resentment is a response.

In resentment is many keys to what you want, that you need more courage to address. Sometimes resentment is just indulgent. Sometimes it's just about being a martyr and not taking responsibility for the choices that you have made. But often there's something that needs to be addressed with more courage, more honesty until you can work out something that you really can live with and be comfortable with. And again, it takes courage often because the system's not going to applaud you for it, but it is the pathway to more health and to a better marriage. Marriages do very badly under that resentment system.

Monica: You know, we're definitely moving into this with the end goal in mind of what we deeply want, which are better marriages, stronger families. So I'm hearing, you know, we start with education, we move into impact to kind of see, like, how am I impacted by this? And I love that, that, that trigger almost to pay attention to like, where am I resentful?

And then what's next? Cause we can't just stop with that. Julie, what do you think is next?

Dr. Julie Hanks: I, well, I think it's identifying what you think, feel, want, and need, and expressing that in your relationship in your marriage. But it takes work to be able to look inside because women are often socialized to look outside and take care of others.

To practice looking inside. And, and I tell my clients, like at any moment, ask your, just stop and say, what do I think feel, want and need? And then who, who can I share that with?

And in marriage, you, you need to be asking for things, right? So if, if you're feeling overwhelmed with something, you know, I feel, I feel overwhelmed by, you know, parenting. I need you to step up in these ways and be able to start that, that dialogue of, of open communication and, and knowing yourself and what you want. .

Monica: Okay. So we're getting some clear steps here. Education, look at the impact, get real about what you want and need and start to express that. Now let's, let's kind of talk about one big obstacle, which is kind of the elephant in the room, which I didn't think about until just this moment.

And it's an unwilling partner on the other side to this, I'm actually just going to read you a DM. I got okay, because I'm doing this little challenge right now about women, just like a self care challenge. So I'll just read this to you. This woman said "I've recently realized that none of my needs are being met and it's definitely affecting my daily attitude and relationships. I tried talking to my husband and after implementing a few ideas, he says, I'm now acting high maintenance. It's such a fine line of putting yourself first and attending to the kids and the house and appearing high-maintenance while trying to attend to the kids and house," then she just had like a sad face and I was just like, oh, where, where are you two please come in and answer this?

Okay. So what I mean, what do they do if they're meeting resistance after they've expressed some needs and either the changes are not happening or the needs themselves are being criticized. And we'll start with Jennifer and then we'll go to Julie.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah. So there's like so many layers. Okay. Let me just get this as simple as I can.

I think that what I hear in her question is the locus of control is outside of herself. I'm not going to deny that if you have a spouse, that's unwilling to confront their role in taking advantage of you. You're in a tough spot. So I'm not pretending anything different than that. And the question that comes into my mind is, is the husband saying you're high maintenance because he's trying to dismiss and, and keep a change from happening that he doesn't, he doesn't want to be bothered.

He doesn't really want a partnership. He just wants a woman that will back up his show. Or is she saying you, you have to provide me my happiness. I really don't know, this is what I'd be trying to figure out. If I were sitting with the two of them . . . You are supposed to make me happy. I have all these needs that are unfulfilled and you need to deliver on them.

You know, basically is she doing something that's asking extracting from others, as opposed to, how do I articulate this? Really standing up for something different and better. Now, again, this doesn't guarantee a spouse who's willing to go along, but the most important thing is that you're shifting something in relationship to yourself and your own desires and your own legitimacy.

And you are holding onto that in front of your partner. If you're waiting for them to grant it, you may wait for. And see, we teach people how to relate to us. We teach people how much respect to give us based on how we relate to ourselves in front of them. And this is you can be resentful all day long about the respect you don't get from others, but you have enormous control over how you are treated by how you relate to yourself.

So I would be of course looking at the larger dynamic, because if you have somebody who's always pushing down on you, that's important to see because it may be very hard to address this within yourself, but that's where she needs to stay focused is on her relationship to her own self and her own dignity.

Monica: Yeah. It's such a, I mean, it is a hard balance, just like she said, because like you said, the flip side is waiting for someone else to meet the needs. And, but you also can't do that all by yourself. So going to assist is tricky, but I think even good marriages that both want this end goal of stronger partnerships face this discomfort, right?

A hundred percent. Yeah. So, Julie, what, what else can we add to this?

Dr. Julie Hanks: The one thing I help a lot of clients with is being able to tolerate other people's discomfort and dissatisfaction and disapproval. And so in, if I were working that with that woman along with, I love everything Jennifer said, I would help her say kind of.

Okay. So, so what? Like he thinks you're high maintenance is, is he, does he get to define you? Can you still keep doing what you need to do, even if he thinks that that, and kind of explore because in that, well, he thinks I'm high maintenance, so she's giving her, her self-worth and her self-definition to her husband.

And he doesn't deserve that. I mean, you know, we are in charge of that like Jennifer was saying, and so being able to tolerate like, okay, so he thinks you're high maintenance, so what? You do what you need to do. And you keep going and showing him like, this is important to me. Because everyone resists change in a family system.

People who want to make healthy changes are often, you know, punished in some way or resisted in some way. And so I would, I would help her understand that like, yeah, this is gonna be really uncomfortable for him. And can you let him be uncomfortable because it's going to help you grow and it's going to help him.

Hmm.

Monica: That's so beautifully said both of you. I think that gives us a lot of starting points. And I think we're just going to come home back to what you both have mentioned is starting by valuing yourself. And even though that seems so abstract, that really is the root of this, right?

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah. And sometimes I say self-respect is something you do more than something you feel. Like you feel it later.

Yeah. You have to sort of do courageous things on your behalf. Even if you question, am I worthy of it? Because the feeling is something you're accustomed to feeling, but it's an act of courage to do something that really will benefit you, that will allow just like you do for a child. You do so many things for children. The acts of love are things you're doing more than feeling when I got up at 2:00 AM. I never felt like it. But it's an act of respect and love for the child. And I think it's towards ourselves also. And I think that can help because a lot of times the feelings trail behind it. And so it takes courage to change these dynamics and you find resistance in others.

I mean, I I've seen people in my life get stronger and I find resistance in myself. And I am ashamed of it, but it's true because it means I have to grow also. And I don't want to grow anymore. I'm comfortable. Exactly. Exactly. So we find resistance in ourselves and in others and that's just normal.

And I think the more you can see and accept that in a way you can tolerate it better. Cause you just know it comes along with the development that's coming.

Monica: That's bringing to mind this little situation I had with Brad, you know, Brad is, I I'm really lucky in so many ways, but we we're working on him saying what he thinks we have kind of a reversal problem that way. And like one time he did, and I was like, "how dare you? How dare you say what you actually think?" and I had to stop and be like, oh, I asked you to do this.

 It's stretching both sides of the partnership. That's right. And it's going to be uncomfortable. And I think one other thing is it's going be. Time it's gonna take time. So if, if we want to help them know where to start, Julie, what's one doable way they can get started on this. And then we'll go to Jennifer too.

Dr. Julie Hanks: I go back to education, start reading books about partnerships, start reading books about systems and about relationships, and start educating yourself. So you can see and, and have a language to put around these intangible experiences and dynamics. And I think that that can be very helpful, especially if both parties are, are reading the same kinds of things and able to talk about it.

So I would just, I would say education. And then secondly, I would say conversations in my own marriage. This, this partnership conversation has been going on for 32 years. From the day that we got married with mostly led by me, questioning like, well, wait, how come we're doing it this way? Well, wait, how come this is my job? Wait, how come? And, and just having that dialogue just constantly going on. How are you feeling? How does it feel? Does this feel equitable? Oh, I'm overwhelmed. Okay. Let me pick up this more here and being able to grow together. So just having the ongoing conversation.

Monica: That's wonderful. Thank you. And Jennifer, what about you? What would you say?

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: I think it's a little abstract still, but I think the more you can see in very much to Julie's same point, the more you can see your part in your relationship dynamic, the more you can change it because we're so often in an, in an equilibrium that we can't even see how, what we do creates the likelihood of our spouse doing the frustrating thing that they do, which makes us do the thing we do.

So when you're in it, it's so hard to see it and you can see it in your friends more easily, like, you know, how they might interact, but it's harder to see in yourself. So getting a wise third party, whether that's a coach or a counselor or a good friend to say, like, even to your spouse, I see that we do this. What do you think my role is in it?

,And then you try not to get defensive and say, how dare you when the answer, but, you know, but you know, you're trying to increase your intelligence because it hurts. It's always uncomfortable to see yourself differently than you've seen yourself. And that's where all the possibility is.

Looking for ways to expand your map of the territory that you're operating within is just going to liberate your ability to make new choices and create new realities.

Monica: Oh goodness. Both of you have really just increased this idea in my mind that it's, it's so worth it to get uncomfortable. It's so hard, but it's so worth it. So I love that you're both starting with let's get clear-eyed on this. And I actually have two great recommendations on where they can start with education. You both have incredible podcasts. Jennifer yours is brand new. Let's start by hearing about your new podcast and then Julie.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah, great. Well, I just started, I've had an archive of all the interviews I've done with other people.

I just started one called room for two, where I'm doing couples coaching with couples anonymously who are bringing their stories around exactly these kinds of issues and where I'm giving input. It's just another way to look at these principles that I've talked a lot about on the other podcast and watching them get applied in real stories and real situations. Because I think it's another way for people to be able to see themselves and to make those concepts a little more understandable in the day-to-day of life. And so. It's been a lot of fun so far, actually, it's been really a fun way to let people have a free coaching session, get some input, but also share their story with other people.

Monica: Well, I'm so excited for you, but I'm more excited for me and everybody else that we get that, that peak in. And you also have amazing courses and we'll link to those, but I would encourage the women to start with "The Art of Desire."

Julie, let's tell you about your podcast and you've got a new membership group too, and some courses as well.

Dr. Julie Hanks: Yeah. So ask Dr. Julie Hanks is a coaching session. It's generally with individuals and it's really about. This process of understanding yourself, expressing and identifying your own needs and values and how to communicate in relationships. So women's self development is, is the theme. I also have a book, the assertiveness guide for women that has a lot of self-reflection exercises. If you want to get to know yourself a little bit better. And then yeah, I have a membership. Just do Dr. Julie Hanks membership, where each month we go dive into a theme and you have access to all of my courses, access to a live Q and a download downloads, send journal prompts based on that theme for the month and a private Facebook group.

So that's been just a lot of fun to be able to work with more people and make a difference.

Monica: Yeah, that community feel really makes a big difference.

So my friends, I could talk to you two all day and this topic alone, I think we could probably speak for another two hours to it, but I am so grateful you take the time and thank you very much.

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Thank you.

Dr. Julie Hanks: Thanks Monica.

 Dr. Jennifer Finlayson and Dr. Julie Hanks, thank you so much for being on About Progress.