I have been surprised by something as an adult...I stink at friendship. When it comes to making new friends, or even staying connected with old friends, it has just become harder and harder. I also find myself become more and more introverted as I get older. And I think many of you can relate. Making and keeping friends as an adult has always seemed to be a hot topic, so if we're all feeling this pull then why is it still so tough?

Psychologist and best-selling author Dr. Marisa G. Franco joins me today to offer the science backed reasons behind loneliness and relationships in a way that will have you nodding along in agreement. Honestly, you may even audibly gasp at some of her explanations - in a good way! The hard things you have been experiencing when it comes to friendship are real, and they have names, and there are ways to really support yourself through them.

About a few other things...

Do you struggle to create habits that stick? It's not your fault. The truth is simple: you've been trying to form habits using methods designed for perfect robots--not real women living real lives. It's time to change that. If I could help you gain confidence in creating habits AND guide you to uncover the ONE supportive habit to deeply care for yourself, could you commit 21 days to learning this method? The Sticky Habit Method is a 21-day course that revolutionizes the habit-formation process. It's real habits for real women.

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TRANSCRIPT

Monica: Dr. Marissa G Franco. Welcome to About Progress.

Marisa: Thank you so much for having me.

Monica: I can't wait to dig dive into this topic, not only because it's needed, but what you have to share is research back, which are two of my favorite things.

So I wanna start by. But it's pretty obvious a lot of us are dealing with loneliness, but I think it feels surprising as adults to feel lonely. We didn't really know that was a part of adulthood. I mean, I didn't, I didn't know that loneliness would be something that I would grapple with as an adult. So let's start there by talking about this problem and why it matters that as adults, we have friends, we need friends.

Marisa: Yeah. So when it comes to our mental and our physical health, our level of connection is just one of the most important determinants. Research finds, for example, that diet, exercise, they both affect your health and longevity, but your social connection affects how long you live a lot more than your diet and how much you exercise.

Yeah. Yeah, my colleagues are like, I could be a social couch potato then. And I'm like, that's not necessarily the take way I'm going for, but . And, and the other thing is right, because when I say connection affects your health, it's like, well, can I just get married and, you know, have my nuclear family, that there's actually three different types of loneliness.

So there's intimate loneliness, desire for a close, intimate relat. Relational loneliness, desire for someone as close as a friend. And then there's collective loneliness, which is the desire to be part of a group working towards a common goal. So what that research suggests is that, well, there's only one form of loneliness that can really be fulfilled by your spouse, and we need an entire community to really feel whole and to feel connected.

Monica: That alone is so enlightening and explain so much. And I think that's where we get the guilt coming in to play because we think, well, look it, I maybe to have one piece of this puzzle, like I've, I've got such an incredible best friend. , why am I still lonely? Or I have a, a great partner, or I'm part of this amazing organization.

So I was curious if we could go a little bit more professional and personally here with how this became an interest of yours specifically, and how you came to understand that this loneliness is a problem and it's something that we need, we can take care of, and how.

Marisa: Yeah. So for me, I was going through these breakups in my young twenties and feeling so low. So I decided to start this wellness group with my friends where we would meet up and practice wellness, cook, you know, do yoga together, meditate, and it was so healing for me and it wasn't the wellness, it was just being in community with people I love who loved me every week.

And it made me question some of the beliefs that I thought. Nourished my pain, which was the idea that romantic love is the only love that matters. That I don't have any love in my life if I don't have a romantic partner. Right. And I, and I felt like these beliefs were making it so that I had all this gold around me through friendship, and I was.

Seeing it as concrete, I wasn't actually recognizing it, and it just didn't make any sense to me. And it, it did, It doesn't make sense that in such a lonely, disconnected society, we throw out this form of social connection. We, we treat it like second class. We don't invest in it. So I was motivated to write Platonic because I wanted to be part of leveling this hierarchy that we place on love and, and allowing people to view friendship for the sacredness and the dignity that I had come to associate.

Monica: and that's actually what I would like to frame the rest of our conversation around. You talked about those three categories of lone. Intimate, relational, collective. We wanna talk more about the relational kind, like the kind we typically think of when we're thinking of friends. Why in particular is this something that matters, and why is it particularly hard as adults to make and keep friends?

Marisa: Yeah, so, you know, in the pandemic I was living with a partner and still feeling, you know, not the best and, and just a sense of like, kind of like unease and I didn't really know. What that was about, right? But then I would be around a friend and I felt like I was like filled with life again and it was kind of drastic and it was visceral and it was like, oh, all this research I had been reading on the value of social connection and, and now I see it.

And I think in some ways, you know, being around one person all the time, even though they're great. Can make us feel lonely because it gives us only one experience of ourselves. So each person we're around brings out different sides of us. When I'm around a friend who likes gardening, I might express that side that I might not express with my spouse who hates gardening or, you know, similar yoga, race, car sports, you know, whatever it is.

Just because your spouse is one person, they can't fulfill all of these different interests in you. And so those aspects of your identity really sort of begin to wi wither. And we feel like a kind of narrowed version of ourselves. And so I think to experience the fullness and the dimensionality of who we are, we need to have an entire community.

We need to be around different people.

Monica: That's surprising to me. But when I think about my real life, I'm like, Yes, I've lived this out. I just didn't know that it was a thing. And what I'm hearing you say is that it's the connection to others and a variety of others that helps us form and deepen a connection to ourselves.

Marisa: Mm, Exactly. There's such a synergy between your sense of self and your relationships with others. Such a synergy.

Monica: Can you tell us a little bit more about this? Cuz we talk a lot about identity here and that's a piece to the puzzle that hasn't really been brought in.

Marisa: Yeah, so it, you know, my book is based in attachment theory, which basically argues that our personality in some ways is fundamentally a reflection of our experiences of connection or lack thereof, right? Whether we are warm, loving, friendly, aggressive distrusting, cynical, right? All of those are predicted by how we've connected in the past.

And in some ways, our personality have become coping mechanisms in case we continue to experience the relationships we have in the past, right? So people that are distrusting, they've experienced relationships where they couldn't trust, and that's how they, that's the coping mechanism they tend to carry into their new relationships, right?

And so our personalities, some people argue, are fundamentally a reflection of our relationships. But not only that, there's like this sort of reinforcing cycle, right? Where those people that have had good relationships have this positive sense of self, which then allows them to develop more positive relationships because there's this theory called self verification theory, which basically argues that we engage in relationships that reflect our sense of self. So you'll see this research that people with low self-esteem prefer interacting with someone that sees them more negatively. Not because they don't wanna be loved and appreciated, but when they interact with that person that appreciates them or loves them, they feel like they don't trust it.

It feels threatening. It feels like this person, maybe I have to live up to these expectations. There's all this pressure for me to be this person that they see me as. Right? And so that is why our sense of self can really affect the relationships that we choose to engage in.

Monica: It's another. It's a mirror to ourselves. I have a lot to think about now. I have a lot to think about what, what that's showing me, What's what It's reflecting in me and you know that that self verification theory. Never heard of that. And yet, yeah, I can see that in myself and other people too. That seems like an obstacle to adult friendships for sure, especially when we have this, not hardwired but deeply wired way that we view ourselves and we're seeking to reflect that and the people that we are in connection with.

What else is getting in the way of us forming supportive friendships as adults?

Marisa: Yeah. So when we're kids, we inhabit a certain setting. School, which gives us repeated unplanned interaction. We see people every day and shared vulnerability, right? Because we have recess, we have gym, we have lunch, right? And those sociologists, Rebecca G. Adams says, Are the ingredients necessary for friendship to kind of happen more or less organically?

But in a, as adults, we don't realize we no longer inhabit those settings, right? We don't. You know, school where we have lunch and recess, we have work and we see people every day at work, but we're not often vulnerable. We're often only showing one side of ourselves, which is why one study actually found that the more time we spend at work together, the less close we feel. So the problem is that we rely on this, this concept of making friends that we developed in childhood when we were in a fundamentally different environment, which is that friendship should just happen. It should happen organically. And according to the research, people that see friendship is happening without effort based on luck, are lonelier five years later.

whereas those that see it as happening based on effort are less lonely because they're making that effort. They're putting themselves out there.

Monica: So those, those, the part of the settings that mattered was variability, right? Like that situations vary so it's not the same every single day. And a shared vulnerability. Were those the two things?

Marisa: the repeated unplanned interaction is just, you're seeing people regularly and you don't have to coordinate or schedule it logistically. It's just in your schedule, right? Like work or school or you know, place of worship for some people. Yeah.

Monica: and I'm, I'm, I'm thinking about the, the stay at home moms who, who listen too and just how I'm sure they feel that deeply too, just how they don't really have as much of an opportunity without having to go through a lot of hoops. But it is also clear those who, who, who work outside of the home too.

Like that's, that's the same. Yeah. It's, it's just a struggle period.

Marisa: just a struggle. It's really hard. I'm teaching people to swim upstream, but the river pulls us all downstream towards disconnection. It's, it's definitely a systemic issue.

Monica: So what can we do to work against that, that push downstream?

Marisa: Well, you have to initiate. And in order to initiate, you might be like, I'm so scared they're gonna reject me. I like to tell people about research on something called the liking gap, wherein when strangers interact, the research finds that they underestimate how liked they are by the other person.

So people actually like you more than you think. And I tell people, assume people like you. Reason being that when researchers told people that based on your personality profile you will be liked, that was a lie. But those people became warmer and friendlier and more open. Whereas, you know people that are, Yeah, people that think they'll be rejected, they tend to reject people.

They come off as cold and withdrawn according to the research, and then people reject them back, but they don't actually realize that they're, in some ways pulling for this rejection in terms of like, How you show up in the world when you feel like you're gonna be rejected.

Monica: That is blowing my mind. that alone. So we initiate, but the way we initiate matters.

Marisa: Yeah. You wanna assume people like you and then you just, you're able to say something like, Hey, you know, it was so nice to get to know you. I'd love to connect further. Would you be open to exchanging contact information? It's as easy as that. And I also think, you know, you can initiate through reconnecting with someone that you lost touch with.

We often assume, like they don't wanna hear from me, they're too busy. Right. But the research actually finds, and you'll find, you'll hear this from me across the board, that our predictions are inaccurate and they're cynical actually from the research people report liking, appreciating hearing from people when they reconnect with them more than we tend to assume.

Monica: And that's a, again, I think another obstacle because we think it only has to be new people. There's something in our head that we're like, We can't do that because that friendship faded away and it's my fault. I, I wasn't good at keeping, you know, I wasn't responsive to the text as much. I was going through a hard time and so I can't do that.

But no, that, that's a way reconnection. Okay.

Marisa: low hanging fruit

Monica: so we've got Initiate. What else can they do?

Marisa: Yeah. So. When we, I tend to tell people to be strategic about connecting through, joining something repeated over time. So it's like instead of joining a going to a lecture, go to a class, Instead of going to that happy hour, go to the professional development event. The reason being, there's this phenomenon called the Mirror Exposure Effect, which is basically the idea that we like people more when we're exposed to them more.

So these researchers had had basically planted women into a psychology lecture. None of the students remembered these women, but at the end of the lecture, they like the woman who showed up to the most classes, 20% more than the woman that showed up the least. So it's completely unconscious. And this research also suggests that when we first joined that group to, to connect with other people, right?

At first, it's gonna be uncomfortable. We're not gonna trust them. Right? And that's because mere exposure effect has not set in. Right. But once we are there for, you know, Commit to going for like two months at least. Right? Then mere exposure effect starts to set in. You're gonna like them more. They're gonna like you more.

Like that experience of awkwardness or discomfort, it's not a sign to eject from the connection. It's a sign that you're on the trajectory toward connection.

Monica: Hmm. What kinds of things do you see people doing that match that, like I, I'm trying to look for some ideas or suggestions for women who are, listen.

Marisa: Hiking club, improv club, wellness group, meditation retreat, monthly summer club, monthly like dinner club. I started a dinner club, like asking one friend, like, Would you wanna like try different restaurants every month we meet up, we could each invite one friend. Right? And then you already have that group and you're going to, in the calendar, PTA meetings, you know, like even going to your kids' soccer games and seeing the same people over time.

Yeah, like anything on meetup.com, there's like a ton of groups on meetup.com

Monica: I've never even heard of that.

Marisa: Yeah,

Monica: And I like that it, it can involve lots of people, like a basic community or just a few people.

Marisa: exactly. Yeah, like a book club too is a great.

Monica: Yeah. And you can do it yourself,

Marisa: And you can do it yourself. You can start that old group. If there's people in your life where you're like, I know I have these people in my orbit that I like, but I'm not sure how to get close to them. Right. Asking them if they wanna join this repeated group.

And I, I think it seems intimidating, but you just have to ask one person. And if that one person is in, then it's like, let's each ask one other person and then we, we already have our group, four.

Monica: And I think it's also just starts with having this kernel of an interest that you want to maybe lean into and identifying even one person who has that shared interest. Even, I mean, I'm like thinking Dixie Chicks. I dunno why that's coming mind, but something like that where you're like, We can connect on that one thing.

Let's, let's go to a concert, or let's, let's just come and listen to Dixie Chicks together. I don't know. I'm going off on a, on a thing there, but that to me gives me a path.

Marisa: It is, and I think that shared interest is so important. The, the number one reason friendships end is because we haven't put in the effort. They kind of fizzle out, right? Not because there's any animosity. So when we have that shared anchor, something that we both know we're interested in, it's also a prime.

It tells me, Oh, now I have something to reach out to this person about. Right? And so it allows us to get over our tendency to kind of just get busy and kind of forget, and we lose friendships because of that. But when I know I have a friend who loves horror movies just like I do, I know when I watch a good horror movie I have, I can text her right, and I can reconnect with her.

And so having that anchor also gives us a way to maintain the relationship.

Monica: You are probably living your best life right now, Marissa, with the, the horror movies coming out, So

Marisa: You're right, you're right. . Sometimes it's too much. I'm like, I'm starting to have nightmares, so I probably need to chill a little

Monica: Yeah, my sister-in-law's like this and I like, we mild can't even watch an old movie from childhood. That scares me too much. So love that. Gonna validate that in you. This is great. So we've gotta initiate, we've got join a repetitive community activity or create one. What else can they do?

Marisa: So here's the thing, when it comes to you know, being the type of person people wanna be friends with. I used to think it was about being funny, entertaining, charismatic, smart. And what I realized from the research, there's this theory called the theory of inferred attraction, which is basically the idea that people like people that they think like them.

So if you wanna be good at connecting with people, the question is not who you are. The question is about how do you treat other people? Do you make them feel welcome? Do you make them feel like they belong? You know, it takes greeting someone when they enter the room, smiling at them, following up with the thing they said, and be like, Oh, I know you had your, you know, test today.

I just wanted to check in on how it was going, right. Initiating interactions with them. . Those are all ways to say like, I like you and I value when you're hanging out with them. Oh, I really like this thing that you said. Like, I, I kept thinking about that. I really appreciate you sharing or, you know, sharing what you like about people.

I, I love your energy or, you know, whatever it is about them. I love your kindness. Right. There was a study that looked at budding friendship pairs for 12 weeks, who, who ended up becoming friends out of these pairs, and it was the ones that shared highest degree of affirmation and affection towards each other. The reason is there's this theory called risk regulation theory, and the theory basically states that we decide how much to invest in a relationship based on our view of how likely we are to get rejected. So those people that tell us, I like you, I'm being affectionate towards you, they tell us we won't be rejected.

So they make us feel safe to then invest in that relationship.

Monica: This is why I love talking to you. I mean, you have like all these theories to back it up. I'm learning so much, but again, I keep coming back to my lived experience and I can see this is the one. I'm like, Oops, . This used to be something I was really good at, like extending myself, being warm, affirming. And as I've gotten older, I don't know if this is the same for you, Marissa, but I'm more and more and more introverted.

I just, I need quiet, I need aloneness, but at the same time, there's something missing. Right. And, and I can see that just might be the gap right there is just making that first step of, of, of just reflecting what I. Hope they can inspire back towards me. Just these feelings of affection and affirmation.

Can you give us a little hope for the fellow introverts who are listening and just thinking, Have I lost it? Can I, Can I do this?

Marisa: you haven't. I'm an introvert, so yes, you can totally connect with people. I do not see there being a hierarchy of who's better at connecting extroverts or introverts. I see each.

Monica: that.

Marisa: Each group has a certain set of skills. You're an introvert. You're good at deep conversation, you're good at intimacy.

You're good at getting other people to open up and listening to them, right? Like all of these things. Extroverts, you're good at bringing the energy. You're good at bringing the groups together. You know you're good at being that, you know, big party person, you're good at, you know, reaching out to a bunch of people because you have a high need to be around people, right?

And so each group brings their strengths and it's about just leaning into your strengths as an introvert, like what sort of connection? It does make me feel restored, even though connection tends to drain me more. Maybe that's hanging out one on one. Maybe that's doing the book club instead of, you know, the soccer group when it comes to my repeated unplanned interaction.

Right. So, yeah, I think the more that we can understand what our strengths are based on where our energies lie, the more that we can succeed when it comes to friendship on behalf of them.

Monica: And knowing that about ourselves, weirdly, we keep coming back to identity, which my listeners are gonna laugh about because I always find that somewhere. I just find that, But if you know that about yourself, then that can help direct how you initiate, what kind of repeated activity you're going to be drawn to or to create for yourself, as well as how to connect with people.

Marisa: I think it's also important. So when we predict how much we will enjoy social interaction, we tend to underestimate how much we'll enjoy it, Right? And that fundamentally, Yep. We have this bias, so it makes us less likely to engage when afterward we're like, Oh, you know, that was actually pretty nice and I did enjoy that.

So it's also. When you are trying to figure out what sort of interaction is restorative for me, think about how you feel after the interaction rather than before. I like to tell me, I'll probably enjoy this more than I think, Let me go into this optimistic, let me go into this remembering what I'm excited about because like being in a good mood is actually a really great resource for connection.

When people are in a bad mood, they tend to dislike people more that they interact with. So I think that's also really important when we're connecting, like not using introversion to say I don't like any forms of connection, but instead there's certain forms of connection that I prefer. And when I experience different types of connection, let me be mindful and see how I feel after, so I know what forms of connection to sort of move towards.

Monica: And with that, I'm, I'm pulling out, expect to enjoy yourself, you know, expect it to be okay. At least, at very least that you're gonna be.

Marisa: Optimism. Optimism is key. You know, when I say assume people like you, it's just another form of that. Like just going in optimistic thinking that it's gonna go well.

Monica: You'll find things to talk about , you'll, you'll find a common interest. You'll, you'll meet new people. All that. That's, that's great.

Marisa: Just be vulnerable because we tend to think we will burden people with our vulnerability. But the, the research, you know, it finds that the more you intimate self-disclose, the more liked you are by other people and that we have, This is the last bias I'll, I'll indicate the beautiful mess effect, which is this finding that when we're vulnerable, we think we are being judged more than we actually are. Then there's also studies on like the 36 questions have even read New York Times article 36 Questions to Fall in Love. This researcher basically gave people these like deep questions to go through with other people, and he found that at the end of the interaction, many of them felt or closer to that person that they had went through these deep questions with than anyone in their lives.

So vulnerability is like super important for us to not just create new connections, but to like actually feel like we're being rewarded by the connections that we have.

Monica: It sounds like that can be a great resource to just pull up and decide

Marisa: up the 36 questions. Yeah.

Monica: said it was the New York Times

Marisa: it's in the New York Times. It's, It's from an article by a researcher named Arthur Aaron.

Monica: Okay, cool. I'm writing that down and we'll make sure we link that in the show notes. And I'm gonna go look it up right after this. Even, it could be like, if we're going back to the the intimate connection, like that could be a good date night thing too,

Marisa: Totally. It can be.

Monica: actually ask questions. So if there's one small way women can begin who are listening, what would you suggest?

Marisa: I want you to scroll through your phone contacts. Find someone that you wish you wouldn't have fallen out of touch with. Text them and say, Hey, I was just thinking about you and wanted to check in and see how you're doing. And if they seem to be reciprocating, take the leap and invite them to hang out.

Monica: Beautiful. I'm gonna take you up on this. All right, Marissa, you've written a book. Can you talk about that? And also where people can find you.

Marisa: Yeah, so my book, New York Times bestselling book is called Platonic: How The Science of Attachment. Thank you

Monica: that. That's so huge.

Marisa: I know it's so cool. Platonic how the science of attachment can help you make and keep friends. I also share tips on my Instagram, which is at. Dr. Marissa g Franco. That's d r m a r i s a G f R A N C o.

And then on my website, Dr marissa g franco.com, I have a quiz you can take that assesses your strengths and weaknesses as a friend and also gives you suggestions on how to improve or you can reach out for speaking on connection, belonging within an outside of work. And the last thing I'll say is my niece read my book and she.

What she got from it was for friendship to happen. Someone has to be brave. So be brave.

Monica: I love your niece.

Marisa: I know she's good, right?

Monica: That needs to be a sign in each of our home.

Marisa: Yes.

Monica: the general, I would say the foundation to everything that you taught us today is, is that undercurrent of be brave.

Marisa: Be brave. Exactly.

Monica: It takes one person to, to extend themselves and be brave that way. And you've inspired that in me so much today. Marissa, thank you.

This was such a, Well, it was such a beautiful conversation and absolutely what I needed and I know our community needed it too. I'm really appreciative of all your work and your writing and that you're willing to share with us. It's been an honor to connect with you.

Marisa: likewise. You have such like a calm, warm energy, so it's been my pleasure as well.

Monica: Thanks.