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Keys to Creating BIG Routines, by Starting with Small Habits || with Sandra Chuma

habits podcast routine Apr 27, 2021

How to address the fear behind making new habits, and work through the failures along the way.



When you think of your goals, are they the really big, New Year's Resolutions type? While a desire to totally revamp your morning routine, for example, is noble, it can be too large to be doable. To achieve change through sustainable growth you have to understand the keys to creating big routines by starting with small habits.


Not sure where to start? Sandra Chuma, Habits Coach and Podcaster, has some great ideas for how to break it down. She opens up about her own story from being born and raised in Zimbabwe, to building a company with her husband, and then attending university in her 40's, and more. Through mindset (fear of habits, anyone??), compounding actions, and a "failure plan," she teaches how you can have tangible and long-lasting success.



About a few other things...


If you're pumped about learning more about habits, but don't know where to start, get my free handout, "Sticky Habits for Progressors" HERE.


If you feel stuck, or lost, it's time to uncover who you are and belong to yourself again with my newest course focused on identity. It's never too late to find yourself! Get the 6 week audio course and workbook at Finding Me.


Quality matters with supplements. From protein powder, to energy-giving or calming drinks. Choose organic plant-based products with Organifi and get 20% off with the code ABOUTPROGRESS.


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Songs Credit: DRIVE by Dj Nicolai Heidlas @nicolai-heidlas Music provided by FREE MUSIC FOR VLOGS AND VIDEOS





Monica: [00:00:00] Sandra. We are so happy to have you on about progress. Welcome. 


Sandra: [00:00:04] Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here, 


Monica: [00:00:07] It's truly a gift to me to have found you on Instagram. And it was probably one of the first times I really did a hashtag search.


 I was just searching for people who are into habits and you came up and I just did a deep dive and all the things that you teach online. And before we kind of dig into the material here, I just want to hear what your own progress story is of sorts of how you got into being interested in habit formation in the first place and, and where it's taken you in your own life.


Sandra: [00:00:34] You know, one of the most profound things that I had a coach tell me was he said to me, Sandra, everything you have, everything you don't have in your life is because of your habits. And it was the first time that I've ever actually thought about habits or that it didn't even cross my mind about.


Yes, of course that, Oh, I need to eat better. And all of us, you know, all of the things that we typically associated with new year's resolutions, but I had never really thought about the power of habits in my life. And so that started the journey of kind of looking for books, reading, , and that ultimately led me becoming certified as a habits coach.


Monica: [00:01:12] Right. And that's probably why I was searching for you because, cause I was finishing my certification up as well, and I just wanted to find some women who were like-minded. So for you as this been something that you have been interested in for a long time or has this come about in more recent years and how has it been shifting your life?


Sandra: [00:01:29] I'm now, you know, a life and business coach, but that's really so far from where I started. I actually was for many, many years a management consultant and I worked with big name companies,  and it wasn't until maybe 2007 that my husband and I decided that we would set off on our own path and create our own company.


So we've built our own company. It was one of those, you know, sitting at the dining room table. Hey, I think we should build our own company. Yeah, sure. Sure. We didn't really think much of it, but within about a year or so, that company had grown to become a seven figure company. And very quickly after it became an eight figure company.


And what was so fascinating to me was that I'm a girl who was born and raised in Zimbabwe and literally born and raised in a mud hut with no running water, no electricity. So for me, the definition of success was being able to live in a nice house and, you know, drive a nice car and be able to actually go on proper vacations.


And so here we were with this hugely successful company, and yet I wasn't happy and I couldn't figure it out and not say to my husband, I'm not happy. And he'd say, what do you want to do? But I didn't know. Maybe I didn't allow myself to know. And it was a series of events that happened that ultimately led to me at the age of 40 making the decision to leave our business and to go back to school and go to journalism school. So I applied, and this is one of those, you know, you don't know what you don't know. I decided I was going to go back to school and do journalism because I've always loved storytelling and storytelling is, is such a deep part of my heritage and history.


And I thought journalism would allow me to do that. And I decided, and looking at journalism schools, I didn't know any better that I would apply to Columbia university. Now, I didn't know that it's incredibly hard to get into Columbia university. You know, they're the only journalism school in the Ivy league.


And so I submitted my application. Didn't really think anything off it until they called me to tell me I've been accepted. So all of a sudden at 40 I was going back to school and literally I was in class with people who were younger than my daughter.  So I went back to school, studied journalism, studied documentary filmmaking, but ultimately decided that I didn't want to be a journalist in the strictest sense of reporting on breaking news and things like that. But I wanted to use those skills to tell stories. And what I also intrinsically knew was that story has power because what we say and what we believe becomes our destiny. And so that led me to creating one platform, which was called Deni, which was focused on sharing stories of African women, because our stories are so rarely told  especially in mainstream media.


And then that has ultimately led me  you know, serving that community. What I heard in that community was the frustration of not achieving their goals and not being able to, to move forward. But I also heard, because I would speak at various events. I heard that the message of inspiration and how do I achieve my goals is a global message that it wasn't specific to African women.


And so that saw me kind of pivot and start to thinking about how could I serve people in a different way?  That's when I decided to become a life coach habits coach, and here we are. 


Monica: [00:05:18] Oh, your story alone. I mean, you should make an own documentary of your story.


That is incredible and so much about, you said connected to what my audience is going through. You know, this, this realization that the outcomes they have, however great or small are not creating happiness for them. And you experienced that firsthand as well as planting seeds and seeing where they take you.


I love that you went back to school at that time in your life, and it still wasn't like the end all be all that you allowed it to continue to take  different shapes. And you even imagined it to, to take you to the next place. So everything you said, I could do a whole episode just on your story alone.


 But we are here to talk about habits today, which is funny because all these big things that you learned about and you learned through the many twists and turns that your life took all came back to. These really simple ways of how we support ourselves with our habits. When we hear women talk in our communities, I'm sure you do this too.


You might hear women say, I really want to work on my habits and you say, well, what habits do you want to work on? We usually get the big routines back to us, right? So like, what are some of the ones that you often hear from your community of the big things that they want to work on? Habit wise? 


Sandra: [00:06:34] Oh, it's typically for women, especially, it tends to  I want to be healthier.


Well, what does that mean?  I think it's also just the fear. I think the biggest thing that I hear is, you know, one of the things that I've learned too, is that often we think about habits strictly in the sense of doing things right.


In terms of, you know, fitness and eating well and, you know, working on your business or whatever it is rarely do we think about habits of thinking the fact that the way we think about who we are and the way we respond or react to situations is very habit based. So I think for me, that's the one thing that I would say is that a lot of what I see is really related to people have good intentions, but somehow the mindset and the habits of thinking of what gets in the way and particularly fear being the habit.


Monica: [00:07:30] Mm. Yeah. I, I definitely hear that too in my community. And I also think I hear a lot of, I want to work on my morning routine or I want to work on managing my phone use better and, and they're all good things. We want those eventual things to happen. Right. But where we're missing the target is that you just like these bigger routines that you just mentioned, or these bigger goals or aspirations that we have, they're not possible without breaking them down into way smaller habits. And why do you think that's the case that the small things need to happen first? 


Sandra: [00:08:03] I think it's so underrated. I heard a podcast interview actually with Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, who I think is phenomenal and he was talking, he used, and it might also have been in a book, one of his books that I read, but he was talking about the fact that we all understand the effects of small habits when it comes to negative consequences. So if I was to say to someone, who's just the example he used, he said, if I was to say to a patient who comes into my practice, that, you know, I want you every day for five minutes to drink as much soda as you can. And for five minutes to eat as many donuts as you can.


And for five minutes to smoke as many cigarettes as you can. I would then ask them, how do you think you're going to feel a week from now a month from now or a year from now? And of course everybody images like, Oh my gosh, that's, you know, that'd be terrible. I'd feel awful. We immediately recognize that.


But he said, we don't understand the flip side of that in terms of how the little steps in terms of the quote unquote good habits or the habits that serve as best work the same way. So if I was to say to somebody who's telling me that, Oh, you know, I want to. Get fitter. I want to get healthier. And I say every day, do five squats and five pushups.


If somebody's going to look at me and think, huh, what? I'm not going to be fitter a year from now. But if you think about the compound effect and the cumulative effect over the course of a year, That person who's consistently doing their five pushups or their five squats is going to be significantly fitter than somebody who started for a week, then didn't do it for a month and then came back and did it for a couple more days.


So I think that is really understanding that small. It's powerful, then little by little, a little becomes a lot. . 


Monica: [00:09:56] I think we like to forget that because we want the bigger thing so badly because we don't want to just settle. We have some kind of misconception in our minds that it seems like we are settling when we're starting small and focusing small.


And how is that not right? You know, how is the reverse true?  I think it takes even greater courage to lean into the smaller things and trust the process. But what are your, what are your thoughts on that?


Sandra: [00:10:21] I agree a hundred percent. I think we think that success comes from these big moments, these Herculean activities or things that we need to do.


And yet really, success comes from the little things, doing the little things consistently, you know, we're looking for the big ons so that it couldn't possibly be, you know,  saving money that, Oh, if I was just to save a dollar a day, would that make a difference?


No, we think that, Oh my gosh, I have to save $10,000. But if you think about the person who's saving a dollar or a day by the end of the year, by the end of five years, how much money they've saved. So it really is small.  We want to set ourselves up to feel successful.  There's something called success motivation, that when we do one thing, it percolates, it, it filters into the rest of our life. If we it's like when you wake up in the morning and you have a really healthy breakfast and you know, then you you're on time. It gives you that little pep in your step. And then it kind of carries on through the rest of the day. It's it has a ripple effect and we really underestimate that ripple effect.  


Monica: [00:11:32] and I think we also underestimate the power of consistency because again, we think consistency means being crazy good, doing all or nothing, extreme actions, and really consistency is best built off of these small, small things.


You brought up the compound effect. I was wondering if you could tell my listeners a little bit more about that, if they're not familiar. 


Sandra: [00:11:54] Yeah. It's really like the easiest way to, I guess, talk about it is money, for example, in that if I save a dollar today and I put it in the bank and then I, the bank gives me, I know it's negligible on a dollar, but even if they give me 1 cent of interest, that means I now have a dollar and 1 cent that's now cumulating interest.


And so next month when they give me another cent, that means that. is just feeding on itself. The more you do, the more successful you're going to be. So it really is about the little things adding up over a period of time. 


Monica: [00:12:34] Little things really do add up. I mean, that really is, this is like the whole premise of our conversation together. Little things add up over time. That's something that we talk about in my community a lot. We talk about small wins build over time and it's in all areas of our life. But let's break this down routine wise. Let's say someone does have this bigger morning routine in mind that they want to work on what do they need to do to start?


And then how does that actually look, once they are working on the building out of starting off of that small action. 


Sandra: [00:13:05] I think the first thing is to understand why do you want this routine? Is it something that you actually really want? I think, you know, for talking specifically about morning routines, there's been a lot of media coverage and you know, every person's talking about how they have to have morning routine, but here's what I know for sure.


If you're approaching a habit from a place of should. It's going to be very hard for you to maintain that habit. You have to want the habit. It has to be something that you actually want and not something that you think you should be doing. So I think that's, the start is really understanding why do I want to do this thing. And then the second step is really understanding how can I break it into smaller steps? Because trying to, you know, depending on what the morning habit is, if it's  you know, want to get up and then I want to, you know, drink my water with lemon and then I want to meditate and then I want to do my exercise.


Now it's overwhelming to kind of, if you're going from zero to now I'm going to do these 30 steps in a morning routine that is overwhelming. So it's really thinking about what's one small thing, one small thing that I can do each day. What's one small thing that I can start with, that I can build on.


So I might actually just be getting up earlier, if that's what your aspiration is, and that's the habit that you maintain before you start to add on other things. And I think something else that often doesn't get spoken about is that you should plan to fail. And that seems like a strange thing to say, but you really need to have a plan for when things don't go according to plan.


So what happens on the day that you can't get up? What happens on the day you get up and your little one is not feeling well and you can do whatever your morning routine is. And I think there's a wonderful line in a  book on habits,  Atomic Habits, where James Clear talks about, missing one day. We're all going to have that one day where things don't go according to plan, but don't make it two days in a row because that then starts to become a habit.


So to summarize, it really is. Why do you want to do this thing? Do you really want to do this? And then the second thing is, how can you make it as small as possible? How can you really start small five minutes even of whatever it is that you're trying to do? And then I think as well, the other thing too, that, you know, as a habits coach is what's going to be the prompt what's going to be that triggered that reminder to me to do that habit.


That's really important.  In Tiny Habits, BJ Fogg talks about the fact that there is no behavior that happens without a prompt. So we need that reminder that prompt that anchor that reminds us, Oh, I need to do my habit. 


Monica: [00:15:58] Mm, I love everything that you've been saying, especially how you broke this down in a way that it seems so doable. Let's talk about a few of these in a little bit more detail. First. Let's talk about  how people are kind of resistant to this thinking, well, I don't want to just do one small step. I don't only want to work on the first small step.


Like how long do I do that for?  And I would say, you know, first off, and then I want your insight on this, is this is not the end. This is just the beginning. This is just the starting place. And the more that you can start and, and consistently do that little thing, the more likely you'll be able to build.


And the more quickly in ways that you will be surprised by What would be your insight for someone who might say that to you? Like, well, I don't really want to do that little thing. 


Sandra: [00:16:41] I think that, you know, the fact that I said earlier that success motivation is a real thing. It really is so important in terms of getting you to do the habit and actually helping it become a habit.


But I also think that, you know, one of the other things too, that we often think about habits as short-term things that, Oh, I'm just going to do this thing until I get to whatever the milestone is. And yet really when we're creating habits, especially habits that are really beneficial to us that are really productive habits.


We want to be thinking about it as lifelong habits that we're building lifelong habits that we want to sustain. So there is no quick fix and let's just get this over with as quickly as possible. So it's really changing our mindset. Around the habits and thinking about them as long-term. 


Monica: [00:17:31] Yes, you're playing the long game here and, and, and the real game too. And when you're playing the long game, that means they're playing a lasting game, that these things are going to stick for much longer than just trying to go for the quick fix.  The next other thing I wanted to talk about is the failure piece to this. Oh, there's so much shame and guilt. Even with that word.


When I say even I feel it, even though I teach about this all the time, any tricks that you have personally to get through failure and maybe even an example or two of how this has come up when you've been trying to implement a habit or even one of your clients? 


Sandra: [00:18:05] The worst thing that you can do when it comes to habits, like you said, is habits shamed that, Oh, I'm trying to do this things.


And I failed. It's natural. Failure is a part of creating the habits is a part of helping it to become habit because our minds are, especially if you've been doing things a certain way for a long time, our minds are creatures of habit. So they want to go and keep doing the thing they've always done. And also as well, there's a thing that happens to us where when we start to be successful with our habits, it's almost like the thing that says, but is that really you, but is, is that like, no, no, that can't be you and we second guess ourselves. And so we almost self sabotage because we, we can't believe that we're actually being successful. And so those are the things that I really think that people need to be aware of is there is no point in beating yourself up. It really serves no purpose. And I think one of the wonderful things that I learned in habits coaching is the fact that we change from a place of feeling good about ourselves.


It's so hard to create a habit from a place of shaming yourself, and there is no shame in falling off the wagon. I think there's actually strength in being able to acknowledge, Hey, I was trying to do this thing. Yes, I slipped up. But getting yourself back up as the, as the saying goes, you know, it's not the person who falls seven times, the person who gets up eight times, you know, you can fall seven times would get up eight times.


 It's just the world that we live in and that there is no shame in failing. I think the shame is in failing and then not getting up and trying again. 


Monica: [00:19:48] That is something that I have learned in, in many different resources, but it's coming to mind with BJ Fogg's book, Tiny Habits, where he talks about the literal research on this, shows that shame does not lead to change. I mean, even if you think about this with children, I mean, of course you can shame a child into learning how to be potty trained, but it's going to be a much more rewarding and fulfilling experience and it will stick better and  be longer lasting when they are doing this from a place of positive reinforcement and excitement and celebration.


Sandra: [00:20:21] Can you imagine what that does to a little kid who's learning to potty train, or even as a grownup, you know, in the workplace and you get shamed, what that does to your self esteem. Like that's just crushing. And so then we wonder why people rebel or like kids rebel eventually. Well, yeah, because we're shaming them constantly.


I think that we all know that feeling. You know, when, when we feel like, yes, I did a good job. Well, yes, I tried. And so that's really the environment that we should be fostering within ourselves when it comes to our habits. You know, I think one of the things too, that, you know, talking about mindset, Is really how we speak to ourselves.


What we typically would say to ourselves, especially as women, we would never say to a friend, even to someone we didn't like, we're brutal in how we beat ourselves up and also how we focus we're. So hyper-focused on the things. We didn't do well or where we quote unquote failed or, you know, fell off our plan or whatever it is.


And yet rarely do we do the, the inverse of that and acknowledge ourselves for our successes. And so it really is about, you know, like celebrating ourselves when we do the thing, or even as BJ recommends, which I thought was so interesting. He says that even if you have a habit and you forget to do the habit, but after you were supposed to have done the habit, do you remember, Oh, you know, it's three o'clock.


I was supposed to have done this thing, but you should celebrate that because, Oh, your brain remembered somewhere along the way you remembered that you had this habit that you need to do. And so really. The way that we speak to ourselves, the way that we treat ourselves and celebrating ourselves, and that I think is the key to helping us be successful and stick with habits.


Monica: [00:22:13] You said earlier that you need to plan to fail. And the reason I love that so much is, you know, not only is it logical, but it's also calming when we are trying to work on the shame cycle, is what I call it, but just like the shame driven way of changing ourselves, instead of just continuing that cycle, when we know that failure is part of the process and it doesn't make you broken, it just means that you need to expect the failure.


It really does shift your own views of your own capabilities as you move into changing, whatever it is you're trying to work on. I love that. 


Sandra: [00:22:50] You're so right in that, I think often, especially as I said, as women, we're so brutal on ourselves. And when we do have a quote, unquote, I mean, I hate him in class it as failure because it's just feedback.


It just tells you that, Oh, that didn't work or you needed to maybe have planned better or woken up a little earlier and whatever it is, it's just feedback is just telling you that how you did whatever it is you were meant to do today. Didn't work.   Tomorrow. you need to do it differently. But I think it's how we internalize that.


And so instead of separating ourselves from the failure, we make the failure ourselves, instead of saying, Oh, that didn't work. We say, I am a failure instead of oh that failed, or that particular way that I tried didn't work. So I have really is again, you know, back to the mindset of separating and acknowledging that you're human, that's it, you're a human, there is no human being on this planet who has never failed, who has done absolutely everything they were supposed to. We all do.


And it's really is just about, okay, what can I learn from this? And how can I move forward?  


 Monica: [00:23:57] My  coaching program that I got certified under with optimized. I don't know if you've heard of them, but our coach there, Brian Johnson, he says you will not be the first perfect human. You will not. And you know, it just 


Sandra: [00:24:11] Imagine how boring it would be though, if you were perfect. 


Monica: [00:24:16] Yes. Yeah. And that's what we're all about here at About Progress. That's what we're, that's what this podcast is called for, because we believe this, but sometimes it's so hard to remember when you're in the moment and you're so used to just shaming yourself and identifying as a failure instead of just paying attention to them and analyzing them.


So thank you for going there with me.  So Sandra, I actually  would love  a personal example or two. Again, this can be you, or it can be a client that you've worked with where they had a bigger routine they wanted, but they broke it down into some smaller habits and where that eventually took them and the shift that it made in their overall life.


Sandra: [00:24:51] Oh, gosh, I've had so many experiences in terms of habits  in my personal life, in terms of the things that I've been trying to do. I think one of the biggest ones for me, I'll be honest, was procrastination. Like I was a chronic procrastinator in terms of everything was done at the last minute, or you don't put it off until tomorrow.


What was so comforting to me was actually reading. I read a different book. I think it's called Rewire.  I forget his first I'm thinking is Richard O'Connor. And in that book, it was the first time I had read anybody say this. He said, Everybody procrastinates. And I think right there, it kind of just sort of almost felt like it lifted this heaviness off of me, because I think oftentimes when we have whatever the challenge is, whatever it is, that is our unique struggle.


We think that we're the only one, or we think that we're the worst one and yet, Oh my gosh. Like there's so many people who have the exact same. They're just not talking about it, especially. In today's world of social media, where, you know, all we see on social media, people's highlight reels, you know, the filtered version of their lives.


And so for me, that was like, Oh, okay, there's nothing wrong with me. Because again, I think I'd internalize say there must be something's wrong with me fundamentally. I must be fluid in some way. And that was like an aha for me, such an aha. That okay, I'm not the only one who does this. Okay. So what can I do?


What are the strategies that I can learn? And for me, there are a couple of things that worked really, really well. And another book that I read is  Mel Robbins five second rule where she said she talked about the countdown, right way, literally as if it's like, okay, I'm a rocket about to take off, count five, four, three, two, one, and go, don't think about it and go.


 So literally, if you come to my home office, you'll see, I have it framed five, four, three, two, one. I use it all the time, just do it. And then the second thing too, that  really helped me was understanding the fact that just set a timer for those things that I'm procrastinating about, first of all, understanding why, why am I resistant to doing this thing? Why don't I want to do my taxes? Why don't I want to clean out my closet or do the laundry. Okay, great. It's because it's not fun. Okay. So what can I do that makes it a little bit more fun for me. So for me, music's always a big one.


So if I can put on some tunes, but the big thing that I learned is setting a timer and literally it's like, okay, I just have to do it for five minutes, just to five minutes. That's it the same thing too, for me with working out, I literally would give myself permission to say, you know what? You just have to do five minutes.


That's it. And if at the end of five minutes, I feel like continuing great. If at the end of five minutes, I don't feel like continuing. Okay, great. I can stop too. And still win. I still feel like, you know what I said, I'd do this for five minutes. I've done my five minutes. And of course, inevitably what happens is you're kind of in a flow and you end up just maybe doing more on the days when you don't feel like it.


I don't feel bad about myself because, well, I did the five minutes.  And then the other thing too, that I would find, especially when you're an entrepreneur is you can work all of the hours. And I, I started to have a, a huge dread factor about of work because it just seemed endless. And so it's something that I implemented for myself was a couple of things actually.


Number one was  I don't know if you've heard of the Pomodoro technique. So I bought a separate, a little alarm clock. And so I set it for 25  minutes. I work focused. Don't do anything else for 25 minutes from whatever the task is. And then, for me being sent, it was at the end of the twenty-five minutes when the clock goes off and the alarm goes off, I have five minutes break.


I can get up, do whatever I want, whatever it is. But at least I know, cause for me, I used to just work until I literally couldn't work anymore. And having those little breaks a) it it's great for your brain because you know, you get a brain break, but also B) then the day, isn't just this one long continuous thing.


So that's been huge for me in my workday. And the other thing too has been, especially right now, when you know where you're working from home, it's so easy for work to become home, to become this one continuum. And so setting for myself a time at the beginning of every day, when I will absolutely end my day.


So at that particular time, regardless of what else, that's it, I'm done out. And so that's really helped me in terms of being more focused, but those, you know, there's a couple of habits that I implemented that really helped me be more focused. And then also just in terms of my own, just mental wellbeing and health.


Monica: [00:29:59] I relate so much. We are really connected on many levels, but also just with the habits that we have worked on ourselves, I literally have a 9:00 PM alarm that goes off that tells me time to stop working because I typically have to work at night. And that timer thing, I mean, there were so many practical tips there.


Thank you, Sandra. But that timer one, especially I think, applies to whatever you do, whether you're a stay-at-home mom, you're an entrepreneur or you're going into the office. You know, even smaller timers like that. I definitely think as like an amazing practical, practical pointer that I hope every single listener takes some small action on the next day or a week.


 Sandra, we're a self-development show, so I always like to end hearing from our guests what they are working on personally for themselves right now. So what are you working on? 


Sandra: [00:30:44] Oh, my gosh. You know, I is one of the things that has my husband teases me about, cause he's like, well, how much self-development can one person do, because I'm always doing something, whether I'm in coaching, I have a coaching community that I'm part of.


But I think from a personal perspective, in terms of the big thing that I'm working on right now, it actually is really growing the platform. And so all of the things related to learning how to do all of that is a lot of the self-development that, that I'm doing. And the other exciting thing  that I'm doing is I'm in the process of getting certified as a mindfulness or meditation teacher.


 Because I've found for myself that it's something that I started  With meditation, or probably want to say maybe about six, seven years ago. And it really was because I have such a busy mind and it was just hard for me to still myself and just, you know, my husband would tease me and he'd say, Oh my gosh, it must be exhausting being in your mind.


 Because I was always on the go. And so I started meditation and gosh, it was so hard the first two years. Be still, but it's been such a source of comfort. I still have days where I sit down to meditate and I'm just like, my brain is just all over the place. I'm sitting there thinking, okay, when will this 20 minutes with 10 minutes or whatever, be over.


But it's been such a gift to me. And especially in the last year or so that we found ourselves in is being able to have that, you know, moments of stillness every within my day, and then also getting into journaling. So it's something that, for me, as I go forward, I really, really, really have started to see the importance of mindfulness and being able to, so what I wanted to do for myself, Personal development was to learn how to do it properly, and then being able to pass that on and be able to include that in all of my coaching.


Monica: [00:32:48] And I think as you know, like a potential client or someone who would love to follow and learn from you, I would love to learn this from someone who has a busy mind, just like me. That would be so calming and also helpful to know, Oh, I'm not alone. And if she can do it, I can too. So Bravo for you. Can't wait to see what comes from the work that you were doing.


And so I would love to know where to send people to so tell them where they should go. If they're like, okay, I got to learn more. Tell me where to go, Sandra. 


Sandra: [00:33:18] Oh, you can find me a few different places. So my website is So my name is S a N D R a C H U M A.  You can find me on Instagram, on Instagram I'm @sandra.chuma  And I'm on Facebook as @sandra.chuma I'm on Twitter at @sandrachuma.  But yeah, I'd love to hear from  anybody who's listening to this and I'd love to hear, I always love to hear the takeaways because you know, when you're giving the information, it's, it's so fascinating to me, the things that people get or the things that people really are inspired by, or, or that have ahas about some oil interested to hear people's takeaways.


Monica: [00:34:03] Well, I personally have a whole page of notes. So I know that all of my listeners are going to have so many takeaways from this episode. Thanks to you. And not only your professionalism, but your joy in teaching this it's, it's so clear. Not only are you good at teaching this, but it's clear that you live it out.


 So Sandra, thank you for being here for taking the time and for living this out every single day. We appreciate it. 


Sandra: [00:34:26] Thank you. Thank you. I just want to take a moment to acknowledge you and say thank you for the platform that you've created for this podcast that you've created for the community that you've created because, Oh my gosh, we so need support.


Especially as women. I know we all need support, but I think especially as women, we really need to step into an understanding of our worthiness. But, you know, we are worthy of having our goals, our dreams, our aspirations, and anybody who can kind of shine the lights on the past to help get us there.  I have so much respect for, so thank you for that.


Monica: [00:35:04] That was so kind. Thank you. 


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